Going Through It

Going Through It Season 2 Episode 11 Lena Waithe Transcript

Tracy Clayton: This is Going Through It, a show about women who found themselves in situations where they said, Nope. No thank you. Not on this particular day. And they made a decision to make a change in turn something around. I'm your host, Tracy Clayton.

Lena Waithe: So many people want the crown. So many people gunning for your throne because they're like, I want that. It's shiny. I want to sit up there. It's like but don't -- but you don't -- no one can ever understand all the things that come it.

Tracy: That's Lena Waithe. Lena is a screenwriter, producer and actress who made history by becoming the first Black woman to win an Emmy for outstanding writing for a comedy series, Master of None. Okay, if y'all have not seen that particular episode of Master of None, it is so good. Arguably the best one in the season. There is a Thanksgiving dinner scene that you going to watch and be like, that's me. That's me. That's my people. Ah. So good. You gotta watch it. But since that win, Lena has focused on creating a lot more of her own content, which includes Showtime's The Chi and her most recent project Twenties, an idea that came to her and when she thought, what if we flip the script a bit?

Lena: I know I'd just seen Girls. Was really fascinated by that voice and this sort of new wave of half hour, young person telling their story from their point of view and her friends. I thought, why not have this with Black girls. So that would be really interesting. And that's really where the seed happened. And also, I think also my name being Lena, Lena Dunham, and just very much was a bit of a push to make sure my voice was heard. And I was telling my story. So I just wrote a pilot. I flushed it out.

Tracy: And she kept working on that pilot for years. And what eventually became was a semi-autobiographical show that followed the journey of a masc-presenting Black woman trying to make it in Hollywood.

Lena: It really took shape and molded itself in a lot of different ways over the years. But definitely how Twenties began.

Tracy: And that's how the process goes y'all. You see? You see how it works? How one idea forms another idea and before you know, you're hitting the streets of Hollywood, which are larger than life. Dream laid out perfectly in a 30 page script. Except it ain't that easy to get that break. She'd seen it with other writers she admired.

Lena: It was tough to get something done. I remember watching Issa struggle to get, you know, her show on HBO. So such a huge win when it finally got there. But why did it take so long? And then it finally hits and HBO is grateful as hell to have that show because it's like, yeah they're actually, you know, people give a shit about that show and those characters.

Tracy: And when Lena was pitching her show Twenties, it was hard to get people to even hear her.

Lena: It was a completely different industry. What people were buying was completely different. White patriarchy, white supremacy power structure was just on 10. Like they just like, people were just acting up and didn't care. And they would say stuff like, well, we got one Black show, so we're good.

Tracy: Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Imagine that. We got one Black show, so we good. You hear that? You see how they do it? Well, I know I've definitely heard that before. And it's like some folks just think that the Black experience is a monolith. We have to give so much to fight for our stories. But that fight can either tear a sister down or make her wanna tear some shit up. And Lena knew that she had something special with Twenties and was not about to just stop because of a few set backs.

Lena: You know, me selling a TV show and realizing that that's more like being beaten to death with your own dream. And me having to go through the pains of, like, selling the show young and not having any real support while I'm there. And not having any real help and not having any real allies.

Tracy: And so the journey began. Lena, grab that pilot and she started shopping around. First stop, BET. Because who better to tell Black stories than a Black network? Duh.

Lena: So we got to BET, they liked it. I think were definitely like, wanting to do that. But it wasn't the right time. It wasn't the right space for it to be there.

Tracy: Okay. All right. No problem. Bad timing, it happens all the time. No sweat. Who's next?

Lena: And then Hulu happened because I had a friend who was an exec at Fox who moved over to Hulu. And he was like, we're looking for all kind of things. We're looking for comedy, this and that. I said, Yo, I got a pilot. And they were like, write another script. Like do an outline for episode three. So I really was in development with them. They -- we would be on calls, all the stuff. We do all that and of course they're like, yeah, not gonna do it. It's not -- we're not ready for yet.

Tracy: Okay. So we just put in all this work for "not ready for it." M-hmm. Nope -- well not, not we. Because I mean, I wasn't there but I'm not gonna lie y'all, after this what I would've had done is taken my ball and went home. Fortunately, Lena had a little more fight in her than I do.

Lena: Then I meet this Black chick who is like, I work at TBS and I want to do like Black stuff. I said, I got this show Twenties. Take a look at it. They get all the way up to shooting the pilot. And they -- at the end of it, they love the pilot. But they're like, we can't do it. We just went to some weird merger or some shit. Something.

Tracy: Blocked again. Ugh. Another step forward just to take two steps back. Ain't that how it goes. But Lena was not about to let something as small as a no stop this show from happening. She went back to BET, who seemed to be having better timing now.

Lena: Everybody at BET, everybody's like, this is amazing. This would be crazy if this was on our network and it picks it up for eight episodes.

Tracy: Aha! You see that? You see that? How the tables turn! So after that, Lena and Twenties end up right where they started at BET. I'm busy just trying to take all that in. But through it all, Lena stayed grounded in knowing that this show will be made. How? How? How does one do that? I need answers. My therapist won't tell me. She's making me figure it out for myself. And I frickin hate it.

Lena: I'm always more interested in really defining the narrative. Because people call them struggles but I really think that they are steps in the journey that are necessary for us to be the artists that we claim we want to be.

Tracy: I'm completely fascinated by Lena's journey and her story of perseverance and faith. Like I knew I was definitely going to be learning so much from talking with her. But like, wow, what a powerful conversation about what happens when you believe in yourself. Did you know? I didn't know. So get your pen and papers ready, everybody. You might be pushed to write your own pilot after this conversation. And if you do, please give me a small yet pivotal role. Thank you in advance. This is going through it.

Tracy: So me, myself, personally, I feel like as Black folks, Black artists, Black women, Black people in general, we have to fight so hard for the value of our work, for the right to tell our own stories. And it sounds like you had -- well, you did have to do a lot of that. And I was listening, I was like, I'm so tired and I'm not even the one who had to do that. You know? Like, is it -- is it exhausting? How do you keep your your energy up and, like, stay motivated?

Lena: It's not exhausting because the work is invigorating. Like, there's nothing more -- you know, there's no better high. The spirit has come in the room and you're writing and you're going and the characters are talking to you and you're coming up with good jokes. And you're liking what you write now, it's a beautiful thing. The rest of it is the hard part. That's the exhausting part. I love -- there's a beautiful -- nothing has ever captured, I think, being a Black -- or just an artist, period, but I'm a Black artist so I'll say a Black artist -- but then watching Dennis Rodman in his sort of episode of The Last Dance. They they sort of -- they did a episode where it was more focused on him. And he's being interviewed by someone while he's working out. And they're just like, is this just all like just exhausting and hard and everything you do -- going through? He was like, no. He's like the basketball part is amazing. He's like, that's fun. He's like, when I'm out there doing that, I couldn't be happier. He said, the rest of the shit around it is what y'all pay me to do. It's like --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Mmmm.

Lena: He's like, that's where my check comes in. And I could not have relate -- like I was like this docu series alone -- like he got the bet -- he was -- that was the best lie.

Tracy: Uh huh.

Lena: Like he literally rebounded the best line. [laughter] It was phenomenal. Because I was like, that's right. Like the work is fantastic. Like that's fun. You know, writing a pilot for the shot. I'll never forget that experience. Writing the pilot -- writing all those drafts of Twenties. Get the op -- writing Queen and Slim. Like there were days it was just like flowing out of me. That is an a -- a wonderful feeling to be creating because so many people -- And also to work as hard as I work to make it so I can get kind of good at it. Like, that's really great.

Tracy: Mhmm.

Lena: When you know, like, okay. This is working and I'm finally getting the hang of it. It's like watching Spike Lee's evolution. It's like when you watch. She's Gotta Have It to School Daze. You're like, oh man. Like, he's --.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: Grown so much. And he's got some money now. And like, okay, he's in it. [laughter] You know, and then you get into that, you know, Do the Right Thing. And Malcolm X and 'Mo Better Blues, all that kind of stuff, because it's like he is literally walking in his purpose.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: And so that's great. But the rest of the stuff around it of like the politics and dealing with execs and the notes and different personalities and, you know, people having misunderstandings or thinking you did something that you didn't. You're like, wait, what? Like, that stuff is where it gets really crowded.

Tracy: Yeah. That's a thing that I always try to do when I'm talking to creators. It's just like get into, like, the nitty gritty parts of it, right. Like your -- especially as a Black creative, like when you have to walk in to a board room full of white folks, full of white men. And like, you know it -- when this happens, like to me and for me, I always instantly just feel like ugh. Now I have to like, go through like, dealing with like the racism and the patriarchy and the sexism and the all of this, just so I can get back to my art. You know what I mean?

Lena: [crosstalk] True. True. And I get that and your feelings are valid. But the truth is that time is better spent making your script better.

Tracy: Mmmm.

Lena: And undeniable. So when people are like, I'm sitting on gold. Don't know why I ain't got there yet. I'm like the maybe it's not gold yet. Do you know what I'm saying?

Tracy: [crosstalk] Mmmm.

Lena: Cus the truth is like, there -- if there's a great project, everybody wants it. Everybody wants it. I've had the -- I've that experience like where people were like, oh, this is a competitive situation. Queen and Slim was a competitive situation.

Tracy: Uh huh.

Lena: You know, because I had Melina next to me. I went and got her first before I was any studio. I said, I need my girl next me to do this with.

Tracy: And for those who don't know, Melina Matsoukas was the director of Queen and Slim and Daniel Kaluuya was one of the lead actors.

Lena: And Daniel was a -- was a god dream because I didn't have you know, my plan was to grab Melina and we go out and cast this thing and figure out who our leads would be. Daniel and I had dinner just on some, you know, friend shit. He was like, what are you working on? I gave him the logline. He was like, I have to read that now. I'm gotta read it. Killing cops? Send it to me now. [laughter] I said, cool. He read it --

Tracy: [crosstalk] Extremely my shit. [laughs].

Lena: He read it quickly. Emailed me and was like, I have to be Slim. Like, I'm sorry, I -- I gotta be Slim.And I'm like, well, you got to wait because I gotta get Melina on board first. And then she gotta see if that's cool. He's said, I will wait. And he waited. He waited because it took Melina forever to read the script. It was okay, she gonna be mad that I said that. But she was going through family shit. [laughter] Took her forever to read the script. She finally read it and was like, this is my movie. Like this is my first movie. I gotta direct this thing. And that's when I knew I had something because I was like she had been -- She's been offered the world to direct -- like, please everybody and their mama want her to direct they movie. And she just was like, nope, nope, no, no, no. I was -- this ain't it, this aint it. So for her to read my shit and be like, this is it. I was like, okay. We got one. We got one. We got one. We got one. And I said, guess what?

Tracy: Right.

Lena: Daniel Kaluuya wants to be Slim. She was like, won't see him as Slim. He ain't Slim. [laughter] And I'm just like, I know. I had the same thing, but just go and meet with him. And I promise you sure -- and she's like, I'll give him five minutes.

Tracy: Right.

Lena: She goes, sits down with him, they talk for five hours. She's like, You're right. He's Slim. So in literally --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Five hours.

Lena: A matter of like months, I package my own movie. I got Melina, me and Daniel Kaluuya. And we got this script that people have seen the film, love or hate it. Love -- You can't deny that there's something there. So --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah for sure. For sure.

Lena: People were like, wait a minute. You the three musketeers and this script? Okay. [laughter] Which y'all want for it. And so we got -- so it was a competitive situation. So that's why I tell people. I'm like, have you got some heat, this town gonna find it and read it. That I will give this -- the Hollywood credit. They know when something is popping. It's like I mean, the fact that Moonlight came out of this town -- like, come on, bro.

Tracy: [crosstalk] So beautiful.

Lena: Like, they will find you. If it's right --

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yes.

Lena: And it's hidden you will be found.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: If you haven't been found yet, find yourself first.

Tracy: Ooh! I like that. I like that. Find yourself first.

Lena: [crosstalk] Find you!

Tracy: Absolutely.

Lena: You gotta find you.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: I had to find me in order to get Chi. That's how The Chi came. You know, I had to be like, oh, I want to just write this story.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: And that's -- And I wrote that. There was nobody paying me to do that. I wrote that script. Justin Semir read it. And was like, Bitch, this is the best thing you've ever written. I was like, word? He was like, yeah. [laughter] He said, fuck it. Go -- And so I would give Justin Semir a lot of credit because he was like, this is it. This is -- this is different.

Tracy: Uh huh.

Lena: This hit different. Because he had obviously --.

Tracy: That's awesome.

Lena: Had read Twenties and Twenties hadn't -- wasn't happening yet. But what did I do? Did I sit? Did I stew on that? No. I fucking went and wrote The Chi. So then I had these two pilots, that one was -- and then people have seen The Chi and Twenties, people were like, who are you? They're like --.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: How did these two scripts come from the same brain. I was like, I don't know. Like this just what I do.

Tracy: [laughs] I'm just dope like that. I don't know.

Lena: [crosstalk] No. Not even.

Tracy: [crosstalk] I'm dope and I do that shit. [aughs].

Lena: It was just like, this needed to be a drama. This was an hour. Telling the stories of these young Black men on the south side of Chicago was a drama. I'd never written a drama before. Comedy is my background. Obviously. And that's where I live. you know, but -- but that -- but I had to write that as a drama. And I did.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: And I wrote it my way.

Tracy: If you build it, they will come, it sounds like.

Lena: Yeah. But just make sure you build something phenomenal.

Tracy: Have to build something good. That's very very important.

Lena: Build something really great.

Tracy: Yeah. Which, it seems like you did with Queen and Slim -- to backtrack a little bit. I remember the first time I heard about the movie, I was just like, so on a first date, some Black people kill a cop. And then they just together forever. I was like, this is just the most ridiculous thing I've like, ever heard of in my life. But I was also like, like I was really, really intrigued. I wonder when you are, like, presenting stories like that, my stories that, right, stories that are so like dynamic and so new and so different. How do you like process the feedback and the critiques that you get? Like how do you determine what feedback is valid and important and what is not?

Lena: Well, it's twofold. The feedback you get in the creative process is very different. That you only take people you really trust. But then even sometimes somebody you really trust, as you may still disagree with.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: So it has to be a balance. You can't hate every note that people give you. That, that's like crazy. Because they're just like, what are you, you know something's up.

Tracy: [crosstalk] What are you doing? [laughs]

Lena: [crosstalk] You the only common nominator. But it's fair for you to say, look, I hear that note, I disagree with it. Let me look at it. Let me try it. You know. You want to be a -- I call it being a good artist and that during your creative process, you've got to hear from some people even if it's some shit you don't want to hear.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: But it is up to you. But you also have to be a responsible artist and not take in notes that don't make the script better. And also not taking a note because you don't want somebody to feel bad. You know, don't take a note --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Mmmm.

Lena: Because you feel like, you know, that person is older than you and they've work longer. Like, no. Like because like my ment -- my mentors Mara, Gina and Ava have a -- they have very different writing styles from me.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah, for sure.

Lena: Like even though I learned from them and came under them, I am a very different writer and, and like, filmmaker and they know that and respect it. And, you know, we have a lot of mutual respect for each other. So.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: So, yeah. So there's that. Then when you jump to when the movie is out, that -- the feedback and the critique, whatever you get, like in a way once your creative process is done and you give it to the world, it is no longer yours.

Tracy: That sounds scary to me.

Lena: But that is what it means to be an artist.

Tracy: Being an artist is scary. You're right. [laughs] [crosstalk] for me

Lena: [crosstalk] It's like, Baldwin -- if Baldwin didn't give us If Beale Street Could Talk like -- like we would have never had --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: You know, to to look at, to study, to smell, to--.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: For, you know, Barry to adapt. Like so he had to give it to us.

Tracy: Yeah.

Lena: Or he didn't.

Tracy: yeah.

Lena: He didn't have to give it to us. I'm grateful that he did. I'm grateful he gave us all of that work.

Tracy: Uh huh. Yeah.

Lena: I'm grateful that Lorraine Hansberry gave us A Raisin in the Sun before she died at 34.You know what I'm sayin?

Tracy: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Lena: So if she said, well, I don't know if I want to give them this --.

Tracy: Right.

Lena: Because of all things in it that I'm saying --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah, yeah.

Lena: That are very much ahead of its time. If she was too afraid to give us that --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: Then we wouldn't have -- we wouldn't have had the first playwright on Broad -- Black -- Black playwright to have their play on Broadway. But I get it. I think sometimes people make stuff and don't want to show it to people. And that's fine. But that's a different kind of artist.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: You could make art for yourself. But some people, like for me, I'm glad I gave people Twenties. So that way women that look like me and walk through the world like me feel seen and feel less alone.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah. For sure.

Lena: I'm glad I made The Chi because people are saying, oh we see a form of Black humanity on the south side of Chicago.

Tracy: It really is a gift that you can give someone. So.

Lena: You've got to give people your -- thank God Barry and Tarell give me Moonlight.

Tracy: Mmmm.

Lena: I've never -- I've seen that -- I saw the movie three times in a movie theater. Three times.

Tracy: Mmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Lena: Three different occasions, I paid to go see that move in a movie theater. You never know who's thirst you're quenching.

Tracy: Right. So speaking of putting your baby out into the world-- and I love the way that you said it, like is kind of when it's out in the world, it's not yours anymore. And you can't really like police who has access to it. When Queen and Slim came out, I remember one of the criticisms that I heard and read -- was reading about on Twitter -- was that a lot of people felt like the, the depictions of trauma was just too much. Which I'm sure you've heard like a lot of -- one of the criticisms that I read referred to it as like, trauma porn, which that phrase makes me feel a way. But the idea of needing to take a break from traumatic shit and I mean, like I feel like where we are now and what's happening like, outside as we speak is like an example of it, right. Like when there's so much trauma on the outside in the world, sometimes it's hard to bring that trauma like into like our entertainment spaces. What did you make of that particular critique and why was it important for you to show the shit that Black people go through at that time and in that way, when you did it?

Lena: Well, I think, I'm of the belief system that it is a Black artist's duty to reflect the times in which they live. So it's interesting because you call it entertainment. One of my favorite songs by Nina Simone is "Mississippi Goddam".

Tracy: Mhmm.

Lena: That is a song. It's an ent -- It's a very entertaining song. It's almost upbeat.

Tracy: Yeah! [crosstalk] I can hear it in my head right now.

Lena: [crosstalk] It's almost like a train chugging along. You're beating your head to it. You're -- you know, but she's telling you something --.

Tracy: Mhmm.

Lena: About a place and about a time in our country. And it's, it's beautifully stated and it's bluntly stated. It's -- "Mississippi Goddam" is the title of the song.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah. Yeah.

Lena: [crosstalk] "Strange Fruit" is a beautiful, haunting song. You can't -- we can't -- how do we hold up billie Holiday singing beautifully about Black bodies swinging from southern trees?

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Lena: And tear down a movie in which I say, Black cops are killing us --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Mmm. Yeah.

Lena: And I refuse to look away. And I'm not saying they belong in the same category. I'm not hyping myself up but I am saying that there's a similar thing happening, is that we're telling people a truth. It's like I do find it to be somewhat ironic when you have that ending but the ending of Boyz n the Hood, ending of Menace to Society, the ending of Higher Learning. You know, it still goes -- it's like this is -- the end -- I'm sorry, but the ending of Do the Right Thing. The climax of that film is Radio Raheem being violently killed by a police officer. So.

Tracy: Yep.

Lena: We have to -- you can't pick and choose now.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. Right now, things are intense outside. There're revolutions happening every which a way, which I love to see and I'm very excited about. Nervous, of course. But I feel like one thing that people always look forward to when I ask them, like, you know, like where is your silver lining in this shit show? A lot of times people are just like the art that comes out of this situation is going to be amazing. Do you yourself -- like as you're like watching the news and you're like, if you like, doom-scroll through Twitter like I do -- which hopefully you don't cus it's not a great pastime. Do you feel like yourself like being inspired and moved by what's happening like as it's happening? Does that question make sense?

Lena: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, am I inspired to write about what's going on right now?

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah.

Lena: The weird thing is, is I think this is Black people's daily lives. You know, this --what's happening for us, yes. It's great that other people are waking up, but we have not been asleep --.

Tracy: Mmm. Mhmm.

Lena: This whole time. So in a way, it's almost like, this is -- this is not new to us. So we've always been writing about it. That's why some people could say, oh, well, you you already wrote Queen and Slim. Somebody would maybe argue, did you write Queen and Slim post this? It's like --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah, yeah.

Lena: I wrote before that because this has been our reality for a very long time.

Tracy: Absolutely.

Lena: All you have to do is go back and look at the footage of the civil rights movement. Who's hosing down the college students? Who sicking dogs on them? Police officers are.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Mhmm. Absolutely.

Lena: This is not new to us. So I'm inspired by our lives every day -- you know. Not just today, you know?

Tracy: [laughs] Yeah. Where do you find Black joy?

Lena: I find it everywhere. I find it everywhere. I see us on Instagram still finding ways to be joyful. And I don't know if a Black person did this, but there is a lovely meme going around of like Nancy Pelosi [laughter] and like, her whole squad with, with obviously masks on. And kente cloth hanging on their shoulders, looking just very intense. [laughter] And somebody says, if somebody showed you this picture in 2019 with no context, like you would freak out. And that's like so true. And I said, a Black person definitely wrote this because I fell out. I just was like, this is so true. Like, what is happening? They look like they graduated from Howard University or something. It's like what is happening dog?

Lena: [crosstalk] [laughs] Right!

Tracy: [crosstalk] You guys are missing--.

Tracy: [crosstalk] But you don't need to go here. [laughs].

Lena: [crosstalk] You guys are misusing these. These are not for you.

Tracy: I went to like the smallest, teeniest, tiniest, most racist-ass little college that nobody's ever heard of. Confederate flags everywhere. Big ass picture of Jefferson Davis everywhere. [laughs] Like pretty much it was just like the theme. And of course, somehow a little Black Tracy got tasked with the Martin Luther King program, of course. Right? And there weren't enough Black people on campus -- there were like 20 Black people on campus out of 1100. And there were not enough Black people on campus to like have enough Black people in the show. So I said, you know what? If y'all are not gonna do any, like, serious recruiting. I'm about to have three of y'all like, whitest whitest students in fucked up braid wigs --.

Lena: No!

Tracy: Afro wigs. And I had them say -- I had them put their fist up in the air and say, Say it loud. I'm Black and I'm proud.

Lena: [crosstalk] Wow.

Tracy: And when that happened, I could not breathe in that auditorium. I was like, sure, it's really uncomfortable for everybody else, but I thought it was just like, hilarious.

Lena: [crosstalk] That's amazing. That's amazing.

Tracy: [crosstalk] I was like, yeah, yeah. This discomfort? This is us every day. Every day.

Lena: [crosstalk] True story. True story.

Tracy: [laughs] Okay. Last question.

Lena: Yeah.

Tracy: This question, I promise, is not about me at all.

Lena: Okay.

Tracy: I have a friend who again is not me at all.

Lena: Okay.

Tracy: My name is Tracy and her name is Stacy, which is how, you know it's two different people--.

Lena: [crosstalk] Two different people. Two different people.

Tracy: Right.

Lena: Got it.

Tracy: Completely. My friend Stacy, she, not unlike yourself, is a kind of an artsy soul. You know, she's a writer. She thinks she's a singer but I don't think she sounds --.

Lena: [crosstalk] Got it. I think we all think we're singers at some point. But.

Tracy: Mmm. But this one, though, should really, like, calm down probably. But she wants to know, like what to remember when she's trying to pick her battles. Right? Like when you've got when you're trying to pitch something or trying to get something made and you've got like, okay, well, here is one roadblock. Here's another. Here's another. How do you pick and weigh and choose your battles in a smart way?

Lena: You know what? I think it depends on the situation. You really gotta you know, do that. You gotta look at what the scenario is. And I've been faced with many, you know, where I've wanted to go off and I wanted to snap. But I think to me, I think the situation will -- will really reveal what the -- what the battle is and what the battle looks like. But I do think unless it is a revolution like then yelling won't serve you.

Tracy: Mmmm.

Lena: So if it's a -- if it's a mini battle and it's you and the other person, it's like I think it's -- it's better to fight smart and strategically and quietly then to not yell and snap and kind of be like, I told them. Because sometimes that is like, cool. Okay. But what do you have to gain from that?

Tracy: Mm. Hmm.

Lena: [crosstalk] Like what are you really gaining?

Tracy: [crosstalk] So think about outcomes and consequences.

Lena: Yeah.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Important, important.

Lena: [crosstalk] Just think about the -- think about what, what the gain is. It's like if you have more to lose then you have to gain by yelling or not handling it in a way -- in a certain kind of way. Then like don't, don't do the thing. Like make sure that you, you win in the long run.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Mhmm. Yeah.

Lena: Sometimes people get -- they -- people get confused as to what winning can look like. To me, it's almost like what I loved about that Amy Cooper video was how calm my guy was. Like --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yes! Oh my gosh.

Lena: [crosstalk] He was like, cool. Call the police. Boop, boop, boop. He's like, she's ex -- she's exerting energy. She's frazzled. She's out of breath. He's cool. He's calm. He's just like, I'ma do this thing. And he won, you know, in the end of it. And I do respect what people are saying about race politics and that just because he's squeaky clean does not mean his life --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Exactly.

Lena: Means more than someone who, who may have a record or have a past --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Precisely.

Lena: It's like, yo. Are we -- All of our lives are valid.

Tracy: For sure. Lena Waithe! This was amazing and fantastic. And --

Lena: Thank you for having me. Appreciate y'all.

Tracy: Talking to Lina really put some things in perspective to me when it comes to being Black, being creative and releasing your own work. Sometimes when you're doing this work, it can be really, really isolating. But to remember that we all stand on the shoulders of the greats who have done this work before. People like Lorraine Hansberry, one of my personal favorites, James Baldwin to Mara Brock Akil and now Lena Waithe, I might not feel all that alone, you know. You know what else? You know when else I don't feel alone? When I'm with my homegirls. These other people who see me and get me the most. So we had a digital dinner party because of social distancing and all that stuff in the Corona virus era. [Music Out] And we talked about some techniques you've learned to get folks to agree with you when you know that they don't agree with you. But also, you know that you're right.

Tracy: Alright, well cheers everybody.

Friends: Cheers!

Tracy: To technology!

Tracy: Do y'all know one of the things that I love most about being a Black girl is being so smart. We are so smart. And we have such great ideas. And what sucks is that a lot of times people don't expect us to be smart or have great ideas or they want to change them or, you know, they're just racist as shit. They're just like, eh, reh. Rer, rer, rer, rer.What are some techniques that I have used to get people to agree with you when you know that they don't and you know that you're right? Like, this is the plan. This is a good plan. This is how we do this. How do you convince people to let you cook, basically?

Brittany: Well, you know what it is. I think, honestly, I think it comes down to persistence. I think it's just like I just determine really quickly, is this something that I care a lot about or not? If it's something that I -- that isn't that vital or isn't that urgent or I don't care that much about it. Like, if I care more about being right than having the thing done a certain way, then I back off. I actually believe that I am right. Then, like, it is effortless for me to be persistent with somebody and getting them to see things my way. It's just like the energy, just flows. [laughter]

Tracy: It's like the ancestors just speak through you. You're right. That's it.

Brittany: When I'm right, I'm right. [laughter]

Tracy: I - -I wish I felt that way more strongly because I'm very susceptible to peer pressure. I second guess myself a lot. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not very confident in my ideas all the time unless I'm by myself and I'm like, you this is the bomb-ass idea. Oh my gosh. Like being in a situation where you're like, hey, here's a great idea. And they're like, meh. Then you're like, it -- what -- is it not? I guess it wasn't a great idea. Like when you're the only one and you can't check that against somebody else. That's a lot.

Berry: Yeah. When I was new to Podcast in Color, I had a blog where I would write like podcast tips I was thinking about. And it was like probably three or four blogs in, not long at all. [laughs] And a group of podcasters that were men took one of my blogs and like, dragged me.

Tracy: [crosstalk] What?

Berry: And I had just said, you have other things that you can maybe do for money. Like, you know, keychains or you know, like wineglasses, you know, things that might go with your podcast -- merch!

Tracy: Yeah.

Berry: And like literally, it stopped me from writing blogs. But then I got probably worse on Twitter because I was like over time it's -- everything I was saying and thinking about was coming true in podcasting.

Tracy: Mmmm.

Berry: Any other things, I was like, y'all can't tell me shit! [laughs].

Tracy: Not today!

Berry: I was just like, it made me -- like I'm more confident now. At the beginning of Podcasts In Color, which is like what? Almost five, six years ago. Like it was harder. And now I'm more like, even if you don't believe it or you say it's not true or --.

Tracy: [crosstalk] Yeah.

Berry: You're like, I don't [inaudible] about that, I'm like, I'm more confident in myself and all the things that I read and all the things that I understand to know what's about to happened.

Tracy: Right.

Renee: And I think, I think -- alright, like Brittany said. Like I if -- it's different because now I'm like a hundred per -- I mean, I've always been the hundred percent in my decisions. But I think when you're younger, it is -- it's just repetition. It's repeating yourself. It's if you believe in yourself. Cus like, the world does try to make you think you're wrong all the time and so it doesn't -- it's all about like just really -- you have to and it's really hard. You've really got to, like, unlearn everything you've ever learned in your life and just, just take that self belief because you need to believe in your ideas and what you will saying. You need to be -- you be -- you need to believe it's true.

Tracy: Thank you so much for tuning in. Again, I know I shouldn't be surprised that you come back. I'm just so honored and humbled every single time. Going Through It is an original series made in partnership with MailChimp and Pineapple Street Studios. Executive Producers for going through it are Jenna Weiss-Berman, Max Linsky and Agerenesh Ashagre. Shout out to the Producers have going through it. Our Lead producer is Josh Gwynn, production by Jess Jupiter and Janelle Anderson. Our editor is Beyonce's okay to our Megan Thee Stallion's song, and her name is Leila Day. Also thanks so much to the voices of the folks you heard sound off in this episode. Hey, D.J.! When you get a second, like, no pressure, no rush. Let's hear those names.

Renee: Renee Richardson.

Brittany: Brittany Luz.

Berry: Berry.

Tracy: Our original music is by Daoud Anthony. And our Engineer is Hannah Brown. Special thanks to Eleanor Kagan for being the alpha, the origin, the originator of this entire party we've been having. Stay in touch! I get lonely very, very easily. Find me on Twitter @BrokeyMcPoverty. You can find me on Instagram at the same handle. Please be sure to tell your friends and family about the show. It's the best way to grow an audience. And don't you want everybody to be as happy as you? Most people? Yeah! Probably! Anyway, make sure to rate and subscribe to going through it on Apple podcast, Spotify and wherever free podcasts are sold. That's it. I'm out. Come back next week. Okay. Goodbye. See ya later. Be safe. [laughs].